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RE: SUO: RE: Re: More KIF-ified Ontology Content




Chris Partridge <chris_partridge@csi.com> wrote:

>In the section - copied below - you suggest that the occurent/continuant
>distinction cannot be accommodated in the 4-D view. As you are certainly
>aware, if you start looking into this, things get even more murky.
>
>For example, it seems to me that this is because the 4-D view usually
>includes a kind of materialism (or extensionalism) - i.e. that the 4-D
>extension of object is the object (and so the 4-D extension is a principle
>of identity). One can (and I seem to recall some papers on this point) take
>the non-standard view that the 4-D extension is an attribute/property of the
>object, then you can maintain the distinction - but lose the principle of
>identity. In this case, two things (of different types - following Locke)
>can occupy the same 4-D space-time.

Yes, this is one way to do it, and one has to give up on what might 
be called 4-d mereological criteria of identity, I agree.  But then 
much of the perceived clarity and utility of the 4-d way of thinking 
seems to be lost, since these 'objects' are no longer 4-dimensional 
entities, and the ways they might be related to 4-d histories are 
much more complicated than the ways that 3-d objects might be related 
to their spatial extensions. For example, consider a 'thing' 
consisting of the top of my head one day and the bottom of my feet 
the next day and a smooth morphing between these, ie a kind of 
slow-moving surface which takes 24 hours to scan me from head to 
foot. It's a perfectly good 4-d history, and it's entirely inside my 
history, but I sincerely hope there isnt ever a continuant with that 
as its extension.

One reply is that there are two different 'worlds' here: one 
concerned with spatiotemporal occupancy and relationships, the other 
concerned with things and identity, and they should be kept separate 
from each other (though closely related in many cases.) This might be 
a good way to approach a unified ontological framework, but I havnt 
thought of (or seen) any detailed suggestions along these lines.

>It does seem that language has this distinction - and so for modeling
>language it may be useful. What is less clear to me, is whether the
>distinction is practically useful when dealing with things outside
>ourselves. When would a process engineer working on oil rigs - or a
>biologist classifying animals make use of this distinction. In my analysis,
>I have not come across any examples of this. For me, this seems to indicate
>that for types of system that deal with oil rigs (and biological
>classifications), this might be a useful revision (ontological reduction).
>If you have some examples, I would be interested.

Well, one can easily give 'physical' examples of the 
continuant/occurrent distinction: a car vs. its lifetime, the 
location of a football match vs. the match itself. I think the key 
point is the idea of there being a thing which endures through time 
but doesnt occupy any amount of time, and that thing might be almost 
any suitable thing, from an electron to a skyscraper. This ought to 
apply to oil rigs, at least. Biological classifications I agree seem 
to be largely non-temporal, so these issues can be largely ignored.

Pat

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