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SUO: RE: Re: Re: W3C approves RDF and OWL as recommendations



Thanks for the further explanation. I disagree on many of the major points, but find it an interesting topic all the same.

 

Asha:

 May I point out the essence of my message in a more specific way: relations are fundamental to any robust knowledge modeling system, since what it knows about the class of relations and how it models this elusive kind of entity are the crucial indicants of its quality and commercial usage. It must be noted that the extant literature on the ontology of relations is poor comparing with the formal calculi (algebra and logic) of relations, mostly due to the pioneering works of De Morgan and Peirce; as far as we know, there is no systematic classification of the fundamental species of relations. Despite of this, the reason to have a fundamental theory of relations is perfectly clear; not having developed a general ontology of relations may result in a variety of schemes mostly based on practical purposes or everyday intuition, as systems like RDF/OWL and UML avoiding, or rather unable, to define and classify relations, considering them as the class of things having formal existence.   

 

Danny:

I don't disagree that relations are fundamental. But I don't know why you assume that a highly sophisticated, general model is essential for useful (including commercial) applications. Surely a more immediate requirement in those contexts are "schemes mostly based on practical purposes". I agree that the modelling of relations in RDF/OWL and UML is limited, where I disagree is that this means that this precludes the use of those languages in practical applications. In fact, I'd suggest that the evidence (the growing use of RDF/OWL in software applications, the use of UML notably in OO development systems) points the opposite way. As well as the 'quality' dimension there are also the dimensions of 'usability' and 'interoperability' to take into account. By 'usability' I mean how straightforward it is to apply the model/language to a given task; by 'interoperability' I mean the possibility of communication and integration with existing systems. Though both UML and RDF may be lacking in 'quality', I'd say they both score pretty highly on these other two measures.

 

Asha: 

Now, carefully researching the matter, we found out that the universal class of relations consists of sixteen classes of ordered classes of the world variables (objects O, states S, changes C, and relations R) arrayed in a matrix structure:

O : O

O : S

O : C

O : R

S : O

S : S

S : C

S : R

C : O

C : S

C : C

C : R

R : O

R : S

R : C

R : R

 
 
Danny:
I'm not altogether sure what you mean here, but it looks like at a meta level you are describing four classes of entity in terms of 16 different *simple* relations.
 
Asha:

Depending on the nature of correlatives, the general relational formula allows for a complete extent of possible relations, so richly listed, but not properly ordered, in the WordNet' lexical database:

 

[lots of kind of relations]

 
As one can see, the mathematical (logical) relations between sets (classes) so actively used by OWL make only small part of an enormous universe of relations, real, ideal, and formal or external and internal. Here emerges the conclusion that 'proposing a general conceptual scheme by using the class /property distinction, the data type languages like OWL are missing the meat of things', accordinly, using such a language is harmful with  badly constructed Web-based applications. 

 

Danny:

There certainly are a lot of different kinds of relations. But I think you are making two mistakes in your conclusion - firstly that RDF/OWL should provide a truly general conceptual scheme - I can't speak for the developers of these systems, but I'd say that all that is needed is something that provides a descriptive capability allowing practical applications to be built. Something good enough to satisfy a high proportion of current demands. The web environment brings with it constraints on what is feasible in technical as well as social terms. The other mistake is in suggesting that using such languages is in some way harmful. The existing web only has the REST architecture and countless controlled-vocabulary schemes in many places where good quality ontology languages could be applied.  Is that harmful too?  RDF and OWL offer a small improvement in sophistication locally, a significant improvement for the network as a whole. Or should the web be switched off until we get the model right?

 

Cheers,

Danny.