SUO: RE: Re: single vs. multiple ontology standard
Dear Adam,
Comments below.
Matthew West
Principal Consultant
Shell Information Technology International Limited
Shell Centre, London SE1 7NA, United Kingdom
Tel: +44 20 7934 4490 Other Tel: +44 7796 336538
Email: matthew.r.west@is.shell.com
Internet: http://www.shell.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Pease [mailto:apease@ks.teknowledge.com]
> Sent: 12 September 2001 15:37
> To: West, Matthew R SITI-GREA-UK; pat hayes
> Cc: standard-upper-ontology@ieee.org
> Subject: RE: Re: single vs. multiple ontology standard
>
>
> Matthew,
>
> At 04:16 PM 9/12/2001 +0200, West, Matthew R SITI-GREA-UK wrote:
> >Dear Adam,
> >
> >See comments below.
> >
> >
> >Matthew West
> >Principal Consultant
> >Shell Information Technology International Limited
> >Shell Centre, London SE1 7NA, United Kingdom
> >
> >Tel: +44 20 7934 4490 Other Tel: +44 7796 336538
> >Email: matthew.r.west@is.shell.com
> >Internet: http://www.shell.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Adam Pease [mailto:apease@ks.teknowledge.com]
> > > Sent: 10 September 2001 17:54
> > > To: pat hayes
> > > Cc: standard-upper-ontology@ieee.org
> > > Subject: SUO: Re: single vs. multiple ontology standard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Pat,
> > > Here's the message that I sent to John that you were
> cc'ed on that
> > > summarized previously stated arguments for a single ontology.
> > > Just to
> > > note, any standard has conformance requirements, and this
> need not be
> > > framed as "forcing" anything.
> > >
> > > Adam
> > >
> > >
> > > >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 20:41:35 -0700
> > > >To: "John F. Sowa" <sowa@bestweb.net>
> > > >From: Adam Pease <apease@ks.teknowledge.com>
> > > >Subject: Re: single vs. multiple ontology standard
> > > >Cc: mcdavid@us.ibm.com, rekent@ontologos.org,
> > > >James.Schoening@mail1.monmouth.army.mil, phayes@ai.uwf.edu
> > > >
> > > >John,
> > > > There are several reasons, some of which are reasons
> why a single
> > > > ontology might be considered better, others are
> evidence that it is
> > > > possible (or at least not impossible).
> > > >
> > > >1. A standard with many choices is necessarily a less useful
> > > >standard. Instead of building tools that support one data
> > > model, multiple
> > > >models have to be supported in order to be compliant.
> >
> >MW: This simply is not necessarily true. In fact it is ony
> true if the
> >choices made happen to be the right ones for your application.
>
> But isn't it a problem if one application chooses to be
> compliant with
> module A and another chooses to be compliant with
> (alternative) module
> B? Doesn't that mean that we have a weaker standard?
MW: The alternative though is not 2 applications using one standard,
but one application that uses the standard, and one that does not.
People do not use standards just because they are standards. They
only use standards when they meet their business requirements.
MW: On the other hand, if modules to meet differing business
requirements are available, then they will be used, and if there is
a mapping between the modules, the applications will be interoperable.
> In
> fact, doesn't it
> mean that the standard is just the mappings and not the
> ontology modules
> themselves?
MW: Not at all. The real value is in a shared set of
ontologies that have a standard representation.
MW: A side benefit though is that there would be a standard way to
provide and integrate non-standard extensions (e.g. domain ontologies).
>
> >MW: You make (as meny implementors do) issues of the costs of
> >implementation.
> >On the other hand I would want to emphasise the ability to
> support business
> >requirements. There is no good being cheap, if you can't do
> the job. It is
> >not even the primary criterion.
>
> I agree with all those statements but they could be used to
> support either
> position.
MW: No. A single merged ontology is not practically capable of meeting all
requirements. It is theoretically possible, but not unless we have complete
knowledge. Which is why it is not practical.
>
> > > >
> > > >2. People have to make more choices with a multiple ontology
> > > >standard.
> >
> >MW: I don't see being able to make choices as bad. Ask
> anyone choosing a
> >car.
> >The importatn things is to be able to make those choices
> that enable you to
> >get the business job done.
>
> Making choices isn't necessarily bad of course. The question
> is whether
> making these choices is necessary. Different folks have
> different intuitions.
MW: Precisely, which is why it is necessary to support those different
intuitions.
>
> > > >In order to choose intelligently they should
> > > understand all the
> > > >alternatives and when to apply them (this is a weaker
> > > argument than the
> > > >one above because it's going to be a significant job just to
> > > learn to
> > > >apply one ontology right, but, just the same...)
> >
> >MW: I think you may overestimate who is going to be using
> these ontologies
> >at the level of making choices. These choices will be
> related to business
> >functions/purposes, and will be embedded in systems, rather
> than choices
> >people make at run time. "ordinary users" should probably
> not even be aware
> >that there is an ontology, just as they are probably not
> aware today of the
> >data model for a system.
>
> I agree that ordinary users won't be aware of this. I am
> also speaking
> about system designers and data modelers. On 3d vs 4d for
> example, I doubt
> very much that that choice would be based on business functions or
> purposes. The choice among the very general theories that a
> SUO would
> provide would not be related to the application level. I
> suspect those
> choices would be made more on the basis of familiarity with a
> particular
> theory.
MW: You would be wrong. Science and engineering applications will tend
to favour 4D (no strong language orientation, but precision required).
MW: However, even if you were right, what is wrong with people making
choices based on familiarity? Remember, the alternative is that those
who have a different intuition will reject your standard.
>
> > > >
> > > >3. Despite advertising to the contrary, Cyc doesn't not
> > > contain any truly
> > > >alternative theories or contradictions. In fact, the
> entire upper
> > > >ontology is in one context (baseKB). Like or dislike Cyc,
> > > there's an
> > > >existence proof that it's possible to build a single
> > > coherent upper ontology.
> >
> >MW: I am quite sure that a single ontology can be created.
> It will just have
> >
> >limited value.
>
> Ok, at least you agree it's possible which is one step closer to my
> position than Pat and John.
>
> > > >
> > > >4. No one has yet shown that there are two truly
> > > incompatible and equally
> > > >valid theories that we need to include. I realize that Pat might
> > > >reasonably disagree with this, but we simply haven't reached the
> > > >conclusion of our discussion on 3d vs 4d. Each of us takes
> > > a different
> > > >view on who has the burden of proof naturally.
> >
> >MW: I dispair. But if you are right and we set off down a
> modular approach
> >the only outcome will be that we have a more managable
> single ontology. So
> >what's the problem in accepting a modular approach?
>
> I've said that we should aim for a common ontology and if we
> find issues
> that are truly incompatible that we should then create an alternative
> module. But let's not judge that a priori. If we don't try
> to create a
> single ontology, but rather just create a bag of alternate
> theories, we
> won't have a standard.
MW: YOU ARE WRONG!!!!
MW: It is better to allow things to start off different, and find the
commonality, than insist on starting with the commonality. People need
to be able to express what they see as different. (Note implicit in this
is the idea that the SUO should be a living thing).
MW: I object to your perjorative description of the alternative as a bag of
alternative theories. This is not at all the idea.
>
> This is also an issue that I'd be happy to compromise on. If
> people are
> willing actually to create those alternate theories, and show
> how they are
> both incompatible with some part of SUMO, and yet are still
> useful, I'd be
> happy. What I object to are those folks who have rejected
> SUMO simply
> because it is a single ontology.
>
> If someone develops a theory of time for example that fits
> with SUMO's
> structural ontology, but conflicts with the temporal
> ontology, and shows
> how that theory is useful, that would be a great result. If further
> scrutiny shows that the rest of SUMO can be supported in a
> meaningful way
> that is just as valid as the existing temporal ontology, then the new
> theory of time should be included as an alternative.
MW: This will depend on where time cuts the ontology. In 4D it is a part
of all individuals, so I will argue these are unreasonable conditions.
>
> Note that this doesn't mean that someone should just introduce some
> isolated conflicting axiom, or just introduce some position
> and justify it
> on the basis of "this is an axiom accepted by community X",
> but rather show
> how it is a really useful alternative.
MW: So you particularly want community X to reject the SUO? If not, how
do you propose to pursuade them? So take me as an example. I am already on
record as saying that I have no purpose for which I think the SUMO is
an appropriate solution. If you are right, you will be able to convince
me to use it as it is rather than do something else.
>
> Adam
>
>
> > > >
> > > >Adam
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 11:49 AM 9/10/2001 -0500, pat hayes wrote:
> > > >>John,
> > > >> First, please let's acknowledge the validity of each others'
> > > >> views. There have been serious arguments for what you term the
> > > >> monolithic approach.
> > > >
> > > >Adam, could you cite those arguments? You have always
> > > steadfastly CLAIMED
> > > >that a monolithic appraoch was of utility, but the only
> > > actual ARGUMENT I
> > > >am aware of is the observation that CYC uses that approach,
> > > which is taken
> > > >as a kind of existence proof that it is possible. And that,
> > > pathetic as it
> > > >is, is the only actual argument I have heard you, or anyone, use.
> > > >
> > > >This is not to impugne your right to hold to your
> opinion, Adam, to
> > > >emphasise the point. The issue is over "serious arguments",
> > > not opinions.
> > > >
> > > >>If more people on the SUO list want a modular approach then
> > > they should
> > > >>be free to pursue that. That is what I'm proposing, that
> > > each set of
> > > >>people pursue the approach they're interested in instead of
> > > trying to
> > > >>force their views on each other.
> > > >
> > > >Since the basic issue seems to me to be that the
> > > 'monolithic' approach
> > > >amounts to the imposition of a single view, and the
> > > 'modular' appraoch
> > > >seeks to find a mechanism to accommodate several views
> > > without trying to
> > > >force one of them on the others, this proposal of yours
> has a rather
> > > >hollow ring to it.
> > > >
> > > >Pat
> > > >
> > >
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >(650)859 6569 w
> > > >(650)494 3973 h (until September)
> > > >phayes@ai.uwf.edu http://www.coginst.uwf.edu/~phayes
> > >
> > > Adam Pease
> > > Teknowledge
> > > (650) 424-0500 x571
> > >
>
> Adam Pease
> Teknowledge
> (650) 424-0500 x571
>