SUO: RE: RE: Organization
Chris,
See my responses below.
-Ian
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Partridge [mailto:chris_partridge@csi.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 1:23 AM
> To: Standard-Upper-Ontology (E-mail)
> Cc: Ian Niles
> Subject: RE: RE: Organization
>
>
> Ian,
>
> IN>I agree with everything you say here, and I think the
> current structure
> of
> the SUMO reflects your intuitions. In the SUMO, 'Agent' is
> the general
> class of agents (including the automated trader). Under 'Agent' is
> 'CognitiveAgent', which is the subclass of agents that have rights,
> responsibilities, and intentionality. This accords with your
> notion of
> "Person". Finally, below 'CognitiveAgent' is 'Human', since
> all humans are
> (or at least are assumed to be) loci of rights and
> responsibilities, but it
> is possible that we could discover other beings that should
> be accorded
> similar rights and responsibilities.
>
> CP> Are organizations CognitiveAgents - as in the legal
> notion of Person?
> This is key.
Currently, 'Organization' is under 'Agent' and not 'CognitiveAgent', but
moving it under 'CognitiveAgent' sounds reasonable to me - organizations
have rights and responsibilities, they deliberate, they are occasionally
rational, etc. If no one objects, I'll move 'Organization' under
'CognitiveAgent' in the SUMO.
>
> CP>> I presume, though you do not mention it, that you are making
> > Position a
> > sub-class of Organisation and things like Managing Director
> > sub-classes of
> > Position - as we discussed earlier. Where Position is typically a
> > sub-organisation of Organisation.
>
> IN>You're losing me here. I agreed (on the basis of your example of
> monarch)
> that positions need to be distinguished from the people who
> (temporarily)
> occupy them. We then disagreed about whether positions
> should be regarded
> as attributes (as I suggested) or as something with a
> position in space/time
> (as you and Matthew West suggested). I guess I don't see how
> positions
> could be regarded as organizations - on the face of it, it sounds very
> counterintuitive. Could you fill out your idea?
>
> CP>I suggest you take a quick look at any legal definition of
> person first.
> Then look at the Enterprise Ontology which says "5.2 The Structure of
> Organisations - ORGANISATIONAL UNIT (OU) ... Therefore the
> existence of a
> very small and simple unit, even corresponding with a single
> PERSON, or a
> very large and complex structure (e.g. a multi-national
> CORPORATION) can
> equally be represented as an OU." Finally spend some time
> considering the
> example of Corporation Sole - which is in SUMO terms definitely a
> CognitiveAgent.
OK, I understand that the Enterprise Ontology regards positions as
organizations, but I still don't understand *why* they regard them in this
way. It would be easier for us to make progress on this point, if you would
try to reconstruct some of the reasoning behind this claim. It seems
counterintuitive to me, because I think of organizations as institutions
consisting of a plurality of people working towards a common aim (with
various policies and procedures to formalize and, so some would argue,
facilitate the achievement of the common aim). Of course, I could be wrong
about this - I've been wrong about many things. However, I would like to
understand *why* I'm wrong.
>
> CP>Also it might help you (and me) to list some of the
> reasons why you think
> "I don't see how positions could be regarded as
> organizations". Note that
> they are represented as such on organization charts.
The organization charts I'm familiar with represent the organization as a
tree of boxes (indicating positions) that are filled by people's names (the
current holders of the respective positions). I don't think anything in
these charts implies that positions *are* organizations.
>
> IN>I agree. The categories of legal entity and organization
> overlap, but
> there
> are many cases of organization which are not a legal entity.
> Again, I'm
> just not sure where we go from here, so I'd encourage any specific
> proposals.
>
> CP> I though I had made some specific proposals. But I will
> try again. Can I
> suggest that (and this is important) that you do not talk about legal
> entity. The law will recognize as an entity practically
> anything normal
> people do. The notion you want, I suspect, is legal person,
> which the law is
> more choosy about. Legal person is treated as a concept by
> individual legal
> jurisdictions - but is really a relation between the entity and the
> jurisdiction - hence companies apply to be recognized as
> legal persons - and
> this only comes into effect when it is agreed. Try also reading Barry
> Smith's paper on agglomerations on his website.
OK, do you think we can regard this concept of "legal person" as equivalent
to the SUMO notion of 'CognitiveAgent' or, as you see it, is there some
other sort of relation between these two concepts?
>
> CP> I suggest that you have the notion of Person (call it
> cognitive agent if
> you want) and both human beings (well some of them) and organizations
> (including positions) are sub-types. What is the problem
> here? It would help
> if you could identify it.
I've tried to indicate above why I find regarding position as a kind of
organization counterintuitive. I hope that you can show me where I'm wrong
or, failing that, suggest a line of reasoning that counterbalances this
consideration.
>
> No further comments.
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-standard-upper-ontology@majordomo.ieee.org
> [mailto:owner-standard-upper-ontology@majordomo.ieee.org]On
> Behalf Of Ian
> Niles
> Sent: 28 August 2001 20:07
> To: Standard-Upper-Ontology (E-mail)
> Subject: SUO: RE: Organization
>
>
>
> Chris,
>
> See my comments below.
>
> Thanks,
> Ian
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chris Partridge [mailto:chris_partridge@csi.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:05 AM
> > To: Ian Niles
> > Cc: Standard-Upper-Ontology (E-mail)
> > Subject: RE: Organization
> >
> >
> > Ian,
> >
> > It certainly helps to summarise the position.
> >
> > A couple of points:
> >
> > I suspect that one needs to distinguish between agent and
> > person, though I
> > am not sure of the exact distinction. The telling example for
> > me is computer
> > trading. The computer definitely is an agent (CYC says - An agent is
> > something which can show independent action, whether
> > conscious or not.) but
> > it is not a person. We do not think it has rights or hold it
> > responsible for
> > its activities (such as unprofitable deals). Maybe
> > intentionality and the
> > ability to have rights and obligations are linked - I am not
> > sure. But if
> > they are then person could be identified with intentional
> > agent. At the
> > least we need both agent and person.
>
> I agree with everything you say here, and I think the current
> structure of
> the SUMO reflects your intuitions. In the SUMO, 'Agent' is
> the general
> class of agents (including the automated trader). Under 'Agent' is
> 'CognitiveAgent', which is the subclass of agents that have rights,
> responsibilities, and intentionality. This accords with your
> notion of
> "Person". Finally, below 'CognitiveAgent' is 'Human', since
> all humans are
> (or at least are assumed to be) loci of rights and
> responsibilities, but it
> is possible that we could discover other beings that should
> be accorded
> similar rights and responsibilities.
>
> >
> > You are absolutely right to note that CYC sub-organisation is
> > a different
> > kind of composition membership for organization than member
> > (something I am
> > actually researching now).
> >
> > I presume, though you do not mention it, that you are making
> > Position a
> > sub-class of Organisation and things like Managing Director
> > sub-classes of
> > Position - as we discussed earlier. Where Position is typically a
> > sub-organisation of Organisation.
>
> You're losing me here. I agreed (on the basis of your
> example of monarch)
> that positions need to be distinguished from the people who
> (temporarily)
> occupy them. We then disagreed about whether positions
> should be regarded
> as attributes (as I suggested) or as something with a
> position in space/time
> (as you and Matthew West suggested). I guess I don't see how
> positions
> could be regarded as organizations - on the face of it, it sounds very
> counterintuitive. Could you fill out your idea?
>
> >
> > I am less happy about the ad hoc-ness of using groups to link
> > organizations
> > to people. What happens when you have the 'same group of
> > people' belonging
> > to several different organizations? Is there one group or
> > several? If there
> > are several, is each group specifically dependent upon its
> > organization? If
> > there is one group how do you differentiate their types of
> > membership? It
> > seems to me much easier to just say persons can be members of
> > organisations.
>
> You raise a serious problem with my proposed 'AgentGroupFn'.
> It simply is
> not workable (at least as a function) if there are cases
> where the same
> group of people comprises more than one organization.
> However, I don't see
> how the stipulation that people can be members of
> organizations solves any
> problems. On the one hand, we want a notion of organization
> that is above
> and beyond the people who belong to it, because as you and
> Pat have pointed
> out there are cases of organizations of which no one is a
> member. On the
> other hand, if organizations are regarded as mereological
> collections, then,
> as I understand it, there is no room for organizations with
> no members.
> It's a tough problem, and I'd welcome any concrete
> suggestions about how to
> avoid this apparent impasse.
>
> >
> > The suggestion that:
> > "Rather than make 'Organization' a subclass of 'Group', I
> > think we should
> > make it a direct subclass of 'Agent', where it will be
> > understood as a class
> > of legal entities with certain rights, responsibilities,
> > intentionality,
> > etc."
> > will not work. As I seem to recall having explained in a
> > couple of other
> > emails - legal entity is a relation between organization and legal
> > jurisdiction not a concept. Furthermore, this excludes all
> > the kinds of
> > organization that HR departments wrk with, such as division,
> > department and
> > section - as these are not legal entities in most (maybe even all)
> > jurisdictions.
>
> I agree. The categories of legal entity and organization
> overlap, but there
> are many cases of organization which are not a legal entity.
> Again, I'm
> just not sure where we go from here, so I'd encourage any specific
> proposals.
>
> >
> > Regards,
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-standard-upper-ontology@majordomo.ieee.org
> > [mailto:owner-standard-upper-ontology@majordomo.ieee.org]On
> > Behalf Of Ian
> > Niles
> > Sent: 27 August 2001 22:19
> > To: Standard-Upper-Ontology (E-mail)
> > Subject: SUO: Organization
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I wanted to summarize the various criteria that people have
> > proposed for any
> > adequate formalization of the concept of organization and
> > then sketch a
> > formalization that satisfies these criteria.
> >
> > Here, then, are the various criteria that an
> > organization satisfies.
> >
> > 1. An organization has agency, e.g. it exhibits
> > intentionality, and
> > it has rights, responsibilities, and obligations.
> >
> > 2. An organization may have members, but it is not
> > required to have
> > members. There are many examples of organizations, e.g.
> > corporations and
> > churches, that have assets are liable for certain claims etc,
> > even though
> > they have no members.
> >
> > 3. An organization has temporal extent. It comes
> > into being at a
> > certain point in time, and it goes out of existence
> at another
> > point.
> >
> > 4. An organization can have various sorts of
> > members. Owners are
> > members of organizations, and employees, directors,
> and other
> > stakeholders may also be members of organizations (although
> > perhaps in
> > different senses). An organization may also have other
> > organizations as
> > members.
> >
> > All of these criteria have been extracted from Pat
> Cassidy's and Chris
> > Partridge's emails on the subject. The current SUMO
> formalization of
> > 'Organization' as a subclass of 'Collection' satisfies
> points 1 and 3,
> > because 'Organization' is a subclass of 'Group' and 'Group'
> > is a subclass of
> > 'Agent' (point 1) and because 'Organization' is indirectly a
> > subclass of
> > 'Physical' (point 3). However, since 'Organization' is a
> subclass of
> > 'Collection', it is required to have members, so point 2 is
> > not satisfied
> > completely. Furthermore, there is no provision for the
> > different sorts of
> > members that may make up an 'Organization', so point 4 is
> > also apparently
> > not satisfied.
> >
> > My new proposal is to cleanly separate the notions of agency
> > and group.
> > Rather than make 'Organization' a subclass of 'Group', I
> > think we should
> > make it a direct subclass of 'Agent', where it will be
> > understood as a class
> > of legal entities with certain rights, responsibilities,
> > intentionality,
> > etc. We should also, I think, remove the subclass link
> > between 'Group' and
> > 'Agent', because there are groups of animals and humans that
> > do not exhibit
> > agency of any sort, e.g. a group of cows grazing. We can
> > then use a new
> > function, defined as follows, to relate 'Groups' to 'Agents'.
> >
> > (instance GroupAgentFn UnaryFunction)
> > (domain GroupAgentFn 1 Group)
> > (range GroupAgentFn Agent)
> > (documentation GroupAgentFn "Assigns an instance of 'Agent'
> > to an instance
> > of 'Group'. In some cases, the 'Agent' assigned will be
> > identical to the
> > group, e.g. a flock of geese flying northward. In some
> > cases, the 'Agent'
> > will be different from the 'Group', e.g. the 'GroupOfPeople'
> > making up an
> > 'Organization' is distinct from the legal entity that is the
> > 'Agent'. Note
> > that this is a partial function. There are many cases of
> > 'Groups' which do
> > not exhibit agency.")
> >
> > I think this proposal addresses points 1, 2, and 3 above, and
> > I think it has
> > the advantage of making the overall structure of the ontology
> > cleaner and
> > clearer. It is important to note, however, that this
> > proposal does nothing
> > in the way of answering point 4. We are still stuck with the
> > problem of
> > defining various sorts of relations between organizations and
> > the different
> > classes of members that make them up. However, this problem
> > seems to me to
> > be separable from the problem of figuring out what an
> > "organization" is. In
> > fact, as I see it, we can take it as the problem of defining
> > subrelations of
> > 'member', since 'member' encompasses all of the relations
> > that we would ever
> > want to define between an organization and a person who
> belongs to the
> > organization. The only exception to this, as I see it, is the
> > 'subOrganizations' relation. In this case, the relation
> > could be redefined
> > so that it is no longer a subrelation of 'subCollection'.
> >
> > I hope this proposal makes sense. Let me know if and where
> > you disagree
> > with it.
> >
> > -Ian
> >
> >
>
>